But they are not that simple, I remember reading that long ago people wrote they were amazed about how they were built, especially the portable ones

One of the first of many.

I think this will be rarer now than later though. It’s really early days and the detained probably are still being treated mostly in the rule of law. Not that the arrests would stand up to legal scrutiny. But once arrested will probably not be too harmed physically.

Later, of course, this will change. If we are lucky it will only be some victims, and not hundreds of thousands

Which is why liberalism in a not so democratic country can do little to stop this type of decline. Too non violent, too careful, too scared

Ideally one would vote out authoritarian candidates, but what to do when it’s a taboo to criticize electronic vote counting? Vote counting on electronic platforms run by the very people the liberals oppose? Vote counting supported by a steadfast belief of state governments not being corrupted, and not being in cahoots with the wealthy families running said platforms?

“There are safeguards”, ”I trust in the process”

Then when voting fails what to do but use free speech to oppose what is happening?

“Surely they will allow my voice to rise and be heard and I can use reason”

Yes people will hear you but it won’t do much.

Thanks for your reply , I enjoyed it.

Been programming for 40 years, I’m of no special talent, it’s my trade.

If I can think of several ways to bypass any possible security of electronic voting, if the owner is participating. Then people smarter than me can do better.

And having administered large systems that have hardware and software parts, I have convinced myself it’s simply not possible to make sure they all behave well and are doing what is expected of them . Even open source.

On top of that, there is possibility of careless or bad admins, stolen admin keys, and on top of that hacking.

I will never underestimate smart people, who gain money and power, to not tamper with complex systems. So low tech, where each step can be verified with mark one human eyeballs and witnessed by the gaggle of people who have competing interests, is the only way to do democracy.

The systems perfected in Europe a long time ago work well enough I think

All I know is that if I can blame the average Russian, German, Brit, Serbian, Hutu etc for bad things in history. No force on earth is going to have me give Americans a pass. Especially after the majority of them supported the wars in the Middle East.

It’s a genocide, the clues are everywhere. It’s not an American thing that makes it unique. There are shitty people everywhere mixed in with decent folks.

And it’s fine to not protest or just be quiet. Sometimes that is all one can do. It’s ok to think one is powerless to oppose such things. This is the case for many.

But actual support that is voluntary? No

And I think there is some overlap between our two views. Many of the people who I would give a pass to, are many of the people you talk about

No doubt about the genocide.

Maybe I am unfairly judging Americans who support Israel or look down on Palestinians.

But I have so much anger about that I cannot be impartial. Most Americans have had hints they ignore, deliberately. I can’t forgive that

I started in world, realized I was not a good fit, and transferred my first few months.

World is great for some. Many coming from Reddit will feel comfortable. Especially USA middle class liberals who do not vary their news and don’t think too hard about certain things

The price is now too low

You say that like it’s a bad thing. It’s not, because throughout history in the face of bad governance, when normal measures fail. People are expected to make a scene

It’s easier for an admin or owner of a closed source computer system to stuff tens of thousands than it is to stuff one ballot.

In the uk, ballot boxes are watched by volunteers including school children.

The thing is, in the USA, the exit polls ( where people stand outside and ask how people voted) are significantly off in many states, causing most USA news to not use that in predicting national elections. That is significant in the multi hundred year history of the practice and democracies world wide.

Yes I agree, but ten years of me being in favor of paper ballots has shown me there are cultural roadblocks in the USA. While some states do have paper ballots, others never will unless this is forced on them.

The concept of blindly trusting vote counting on systems impossible to understand are as American as apple pie, patriotism, and the 4th of July.

It’s not political and cannot be solved by rational argument

snopes does not have that in their search results

When I worked with customers I found having a slightly unpleasant look, while working hard, propelled me into stock. They had to be very desperate to use me at the front.

My secret power was sucking up to management though. A combination of unfriendliness to some and subservience to others is hard to do for many

The Enola Gay is still mildly radioactive, so I can’t help but think “Hot gays in your area ready to bang”

Actions which inspire matter; even in a corrupt system like this. This was the first time I was inspired by a democrat in a while.

Sanders always inspires, so does not count; and if others are doing stuff it goes unnoticed in my feeds.

So Green did something important, noticed by people, breaking up the ebb and flow of hopelessness

Also the average French person understands how democracy works, with paper ballots and checks.

Americans tend to blindly trust any old oligarch putting up software to vote on. And are incapable of introspection on the matter.

The two systems are not the same. Like comparing religion and science.

said Christians were having to choice between their Churches and Trump

it’s an easy way for believers to see and avoid the unholy temples now worshipping the ungodly

I meant non violent ways. The fact there are few alternatives, in any, allowed the misunderstanding

I think it’s all part of the child abuse cycle; people manipulated and humiliated while young, without a person to speak up for them, tend to support these types of things. And a lot of their children will too.

But those who had more nurturing and love tend to not support ideologies which dehumanize, and can recognize more when something promotes senseless violence. They are also more decent adults.

Also his father was involved in an organization called x, which was fascist